Shameful: American Indian land sold off by IRS to pay off taxes

You really need to learn some real history gundy - the "govnmnt" split the land up under various acts in congress to get the NDNs out from under the reservation system - with no discourse with the Tribes - so the NDNs could "assimulate" into mainstream America. However, since the NDNs didn't/don't have jobs or any form of income, how could they pay taxes to both Feds/states - so, the gvnmnt takes the land back and then charges the NDNs back taxes/penalty/interest.

Good ol' Unkle Sammm - let's screw ya and screw ya again, eh?

@@

I don't need a history lesson because we don't live in a society where the laws of old are accepted and what is done is done. They hold tax exempt status and if they wouldn't have sold the "sacred" land (that has never been sacred mind you since land was sold to the "whites" almost immediately when they landed on this continent)...we wouldn't have this mess.

It was an internal problem because the land wasn't awarded to anyone but those of Native American ethnicity. Some wanted to sell their portion of the land and well...you can see there clearly is a conflict of interest within the tribe itself.

P.S. In America we award things to people but the moment you give up that award...well we can't assure you it will be there.

P.S.S. Get a job, adapt, get an education instead of thinking that your ethnicity is superior...like the Native Americans. Native Americans actually have an advantage in that most everything is subsidized by the government (education, homes, etc.)

Why are they the poorest Tribe and why should I care?

gundy-

You do need a history lesson

1. they only "sold" the land b/c they got a laugh out of the fact that white people thought humans could actually "own" land.

2. Just because a few Natives sold Manhattan Island, that means noone from any other tribe - no other Natives - held the thought that their land was sacred?

Interesting point of view. So if one white person kills someone, does that mean all of them are murderers?

1. they only "sold" the land b/c they got a laugh out of the fact that white people thought humans could actually "own" land.

That is very interesting. Never thought of that.

held the thought that their land was sacred

Yeah, you are right. Holding the thought of something makes it so. I am thinking you are the smartest person in the world............

My house is sacred to me but it is not given to me free of charge.

native people have recieved nothing FREE............. paid for with blood, and more blood.

gundy wouldn't benefit from history lesson, already knows it all.

skally......... you said it. friend request sent.

native people have recieved nothing FREE............. paid for with blood, and more blood.

Everything current Native Americans receive is "free". The current Native Americans Ancestors clearly didn't die or they wouldn't be around now would they? Others paid for it in blood but not the current inhabitants of these tribes.

Everything current Native Americans receive is "free".

Highly debatable.

Highly debatable.

Well "Everything" is debatable because, well, they can't just walk onto a car dealership and take a car...but what they receive is FREE! Did they pay for it? Their Ancestors are dead and gone, they couldn't have paid for it.

When will it end? Will Native Americans (and other races) continue to laude what their Ancestors did over our heads? Should they receive free stuff for eternity for what took place in the span of a century or less?

hey gundy, much of what is perceived as "free" is actually just the fulfillment of obligations and promises made by the Federal government. In other words, the Government is paying them what they agreed to pay them, by treaty.

Contrary to popular belief, not all of North America was stolen. A great chunk of native land was bought from the tribes, by the Federal government or local colonists.

Whether or not the price was a fair price, or whether the majority of the people agreed to sell, is an entirely different story.

I'll try to make this simple. It's called a "treaty." It's kind of like a contract, only made between governments. We often use them to end wars. If land is promised to a tribe in a treaty, than that land should remain with the tribe and not be subject to taxation, unless that was agreed to in the treaty. The problem is not this tribe and this tract of land, it's the government deciding that they can change the terms of the treaties whenever it suits them. And don't try to say they're "just pieces of paper" or that they're "really old and no one cares." Those same attributes apply to the Constitution.

As far as getting everything free - if you make a contract to receive maid service for 200 years, in exchange for, let's say, a lump payment today of $4000, can the maid service come back in 100 years and demand more money? No, they shouldn't have made the deal if they didn't want to stick with it. Treaties guaranteed tribes certain rights, including health care. It's only "free" in the sense that it was paid for in land a long time ago. If the government didn't want to hold up their end of the deal, then they shouldn't have made it.

The problem is not this tribe and this tract of land, it's the government deciding that they can change the terms of the treaties whenever it suits them. And don't try to say they're "just pieces of paper" or that they're "really old and no one cares." Those same attributes apply to the Constitution.

Let ME make this clear then. They gave them(Native Americans) the land under the treaty, it was then sold to a private party, the Indians wanted it back under treaty laws. THIS DOES NOT WORK. Who broke the treaty first?

Did you even read the article, they sold the land and thenbought it back. Are you kind of stupid? Their business ventures were being taxed, the land was supposed to be put into trust - the tax owed on the business is being recovered.

I was talking about Casinos...

I read it. It was untaxed until they sold it. Understood?

Gundy.......... which of your ancestors deaths don't you count? What price which is paid in blood do you 'eventually' just piss off as oh well? How much illegal and middle of hte night deals do you just ignore, and how many natives died last year and never had their deaths investigated? Has the FBI invaded your neighborhood lately and fired in your direction? How about some chemical dumps in your city? get lost.

which of your ancestors deaths don't you count?

Now I understand...

How much illegal and middle of hte night deals do you just ignore, and how many natives died last year and never had their deaths investigated? Has the FBI invaded your

You have a predisposition.

Simply said - don't try to judge me until you have walked a mile in my moccasins.

This wouldn't be America if we weren't screwing someone out of something.

For a moment here I thought I was on a Tiger blog with all the screwing going on.

LOL! That took me a second.

Carbonsteel,

It isn't America, it's the bankers (Fed) who run this country and they haven't even warmed up yet. They don't care if you are "red, yellow, black or white. All are equal" in their sight... They are not in the least bit racist, they are completely elitist. If there is some "little person" they can screw, they'll find a way to do it. And after they have finished screwing ALL Americans, they'll screw whomever comes next. It's just what they do. More for them less for you.

Hey lovemyplanet,

Well said and I agree and I didn't mean to paint the entire country with a broad brush.

; )

fstwarrior, I particularly liked your post; The US has been trying to steal this land for hundreds of years. This was only the latest move to acquire it. Not a very good deal at all.

Yes, and just like in earlier times, ***follow the money*** there is a natural resource our govt wants to steal. And once again, it's the energy merchants. Wind this time, instead of oil. At least they're predictable. BTW, it wasn't mentioned who bought the land at half price....

Really don't think we had/have to steal it. We won it by rights of conquest many many many years ago.

Any thief can claim rights by conquest.

Only the victor

RIGHTS of conquest? What? I think I'm going to puke. I hope you feel this way when America gets it's ass taken by another country. I bet you're just going to be handing them all of your valuables!

nahhhh I've been in combat sunshine. Have a pretty good idea of how it works.

you?????????

So do we own Germany now because we beat them in a war? I guess we could have made that a stipulation to end WWII, but we didn't. The treaties to end the Indian Wars were supposed to leave land in the hands of tribes. It was a way to end hostilities.

Really don't think we had/have to steal it. We won it by rights of conquest many many many years ago.

Are you referring to the bogus treaty that was signed...or the mishandling of the Tribe's land by BIA?

Which one? There were 942 treaties signed by the Tribes and the U. S. Government. Congress only ratified 486, but the Tribes didn't know that and lived up to the obligations they agreed to on all 942 treaties. 'Course, we found out about the disparity in the 1940's and started fighting for what was taken without agreement. That's when the Indian Claims Commission was founded in the 50's - to hear our grievances. Unfortunately, as happens with most relations between the Tribes and the government, not much happened.

Not only is the BIA mishandling land, but look at the money gone, education opportunities, highways, infrastructures, housing, etc.. Bureau of Indian Angst.

I'm talking about my fore bearers who where burned, scalped, raped, skinned, for trying to settle on a piece of land "that was given for all to use".

I'm talking about the men who fought back and then conquered a land that they wanted. Just as every other nation in the world has done. Everybody took it from somebody.

I'm talking about my fore bearers who where burned, scalped, raped, skinned, for trying to settle on a piece of land "that was given for all to use".

Like this guy?

George Armstrong Custer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George Armstrong Custer was a 3xgreat-grandson of Paulus Küster from ..... Later, in his campaigns against the Indians, Custer wore a buckskins outfit, ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer - Cached - Similar
By the time of Custer's expedition to the Black Hills in 1874, the level of conflict and tension between the U.S. and many plains Indians tribes (including the Lakota Sioux and the Cheyenne) had become exceedingly high. Americans continually broke treaty agreements and advanced further westward, resulting in violence and acts of depredation by both sides. To take possession of the Black Hills (and thus the gold deposits), and to stop Indian attacks, the U.S. decided to corral all remaining free plains Indians. The Grant government set a deadline of January 31, 1876 for all Sioux and Arapaho wintering in the "unceded territory" to report to their designated agencies (reservations) or be considered "hostile".^[25]

ifyou are not willing to look at the atrocities committed against those who 'lived' here, and are unwilling to acknowledge the pain of another.............. and I have heard Vietnam vets speak of meeting their 'enemy', then you are unable to contribute to a better path in our future.

and I would be interested in knowing those forebearers who were burned, scalped, raped, skinned, ................. or are you adopting some to make a point.

History is clear.

Americans continually broke treaty agreements and advanced further westward, resulting in violence and acts of depredation by both sides

You can`t change it. You can never repay it.

freebird

They're the same ones you are referring to. Just on the other side of the aisle

there is no isle, and there is no 'other side'. that is my point. We are all citizens of this nation.

why some are ignored and left to suffer is the question. and always has been.

there is an aisle and another side as long as people refer to themselves as this kind of American or, That kind of American, and whine about what they are entitled to.

Every one has to overcome his or hers own adversity and make what they can of their own lives.Unless of course a severe physical or mental disability. No one has helped me with anything in my life, I have fought and scraped for everything I have.

I could have whined and cried about my past. I didn't I got on with it and built a better tommorow for me and my family

Not crying, not whining - if a person/government cannot/will not comply with legally contracted agreements, they are not much of a person/government, regardless of how old that contact is. Binding is binding in the eyes of the law - 'cept for the government. Doesn't say much for the character of the nation, or the people who make up that nation, that allows its' government to act in such a flagerant manner either.

It is interesting that you don't see many whites complaining about how the government is not keeping their end of the bargain, whatever that bargain is, but you see tons of minorities complaining. Wonder why? Could be the whites feel like they are the "rulers", since it is "their" law, and all others just have to abide by that law????

Naw

basically their is nothing the whites are entitled too, except to pay for the percentage of minorities(not all) that think we owe them something.

Let me explain that you will not be able to race bait me. I have watched color television all my life. I recognize good people and race baiters in all races including my own. You will not be able to convince me that my opinions are in any way racist or supremacist. If it were white people complaining as this tribe is I would tell them to quit whining also.

The world is eventually gonna get tired of all this whoa is me bull@!$%# and then we will start to heal and become what we truly can be.

Concur - not race baiting - just showing a reality situation of colors. The sad part is that Tribes preach acceptance of a person as such - a person - no color involved, and, you're right, the rest of the world should be thinking the same.

How do you own a country as a collective if you deny the collective rights of the first peoples. What the hell is this

"We own this country. They don't.

It is illogical to insist on the a division of Indians from a collective WE by suggesting they do not have equal rights of entitlement and then try to hold them accountable to laws for the public - or "everyone." Follow your own logic - If they are subject to the same rules - then they must also own the country under the same collective of Americans.

they have a choice, we do not.

If they want to be tax exempt, make their own rules, then they should not benifit from my labors.

according the the thanksgiving myths.......... you have benefited for sometime by their labors:)

collective of Americans.

did you mean 'majority of americans?'

I simply questioned the terms "WE" and "they", a division that suggests Native Americans are not part of an American land ownership collective. You cannot have it both ways by demanding they live by the same rules while excluding them from society. You cannot say stupid things such as "WE own the land"...who the hell is we? landowners purchase land and thus join a collective of sorts, who excludes Native Americans from such ownership? This kind of division simply reveals the continued marginalisation of Native Americans and the kind of racism that underlies such arguments.

landowners purchase land and thus join a collective of sorts, who excludes Native Americans from such ownership?

You are exactly right. They owned the land FREE OF CHARGE until they sold it an wanted it back...the definition of an Indian Giver.

chasincash

I don't remember where anything was said about Indians not being able to buy whatever they want to by, as long as they can afford it.

Me and mine cannot have free land. We have to work to be able to afford what little we have.

If life is so bad on the reservation leave and go out and make your way in the world just everyone else has at least tried to do.

Many of them do, emoryh. Sometimes, after becoming doctors or lawyers, they return to the Rez to help their own. Sometimes they become Congressmen and try to help that way.

It isn't free land, they owned all of it and were gifted a tiny proportion of it...and usually not sustainable land from which they could prosper. So to believe what they have is some sort of gift is a joke. What they have and what they now receive is compensation for the depopulation and impoverishment of a people so that another culture could thrive. That tiny bit of compensation pales in comparison to what they are owed.

What they have and what they now receive is compensation for the depopulation and impoverishment of a people so that another culture could thrive.

I didn't know we were playing race favorites or that one race was more valuable than another. Also, you are putting a price on peoples lives.

Soon certain races WILL become extinct, and not because "white people" killed them. People marry and raise a family with whoever they want. Native Americans are confined in, as another poster put, race ghettos.

Native Americans are confined in, as another poster put, race ghettos

They are not confined. They can leave whenever they want

They are hearded like sheep then.

Seriously this argument gets more and more silly. To believe there has been little impact and therefore little responsibility for Native Americans may be your opinion but it is not fact. Native Americans were reduced to impoverishment. You can continue to pretend this is not your problem, fine... people like you are a dime a dozen. The rest of us will take a more humanitarian and knowledgable stance.

Native Americans were reduced to impoverishment.

Were they reduced to it or were they always living in it?

Who is at fault then? If I stop working I will be reduced to impoverishment as well.

If I wanted to grow my own farm land and work on other things I would be reduced to impoverishment. The argument doesn't make any sense.

Native Americans: The only group of people in the world who think they shouldn't work in order to live.

gundy............. indian giver?

give me a break. your in here to distract how, to highjack a discussion. troll on

Why sell land if you want it back? Not a very well thought out plan.

Native Americans: The only group of people in the world who think they shouldn't work in order to live.

Now I know you're deliberately trying to provoke.

Got it.

believer, I hadn't realized that provocation was intended, hmm. Looks like it now.

I was guessing a little "human nature" might have been going on. Perhaps: sell it once to make a profit, buy it back at a higher value than you sold it for to have a down payment for business ventures [maybe], accidentally forget to put it back in "trust", sell it again to pay off debts and make a profit. I am just speculating and have no ill regard for Native Americans. Shady deals seem to be the norm in America. (:

I can't speak for this particular incident, CL, but shady deals and corruption exist just about everywhere.

There was a big mess going on with the Navajo tribal government, way back when I was on the reservation there. Accusations and rumors everywhere.

If you remember back to the Wounded Knee incident in the 70s, one of the reasons the Federal government got involved was because of complaints of Gestapo-like tactics and intimidation by tribal politicos.

So, you're right about "human nature". I don't know what's going on in this particular deal, but until I get more facts, any scenario is possible, I suppose.

I agree, anything is possible.

Oh yeah - Dicky and his Goon Squad - remember them well.

Answer to 9.13 - go to the library and see if they have a book written by Vine Deloria named "Custer Died for Your Sins". If they don't, have them order it on the loaner program. You will quickly learn the answer to your questions of "Were they reduced to it or were they always living in it? Who is at fault then? If I stop working I will be reduced to impoverishment as well." The short answers are - yes, no, the U. S. government, yes, you would, not in the same manner but with equal results.

Yes, fst, the Goon Squad. I didn't want to name names, but since you did :-0

The book you mentioned is still in print. Barnes and Noble carries it. I am on my third copy, since I first bought it in high school.

'Nuther one I thought of on the way to work this morning - "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown - WOW - what a history lesson.

The point that is being made is that the same,

No one says that you have to stay on the reservation, but if you do not you no longer receive the freebies that you are given by the government.

I really have a problem with this, just as in rural Appalachia. If you cannot find work and a means to support your family, move to where you can.

Every race has committed atrocities at one time or another, yet everyone wants White America to pay for theirs. I for one refuse to let others try to make me feel like a monster because i I understand that the past is the past. Just like a child who had a bad childhood and carry that with them with a victim mentality as an excuse for everything that is wrong with them.

I know a man married to an Native American, She receives money from her share of casinos and then by returning to the reservation for a month every year she gets money from the government. I mean thousands of dollars.

have you been to the reservation, Emoryh? Can you name those wonderful freebies? Every race has not committed atrocities and come out the victor to go on and committ more attrocities........... as for white america.............. and what everyone wants....... thats a feeling, not a fact........ and feelings pass, as they are meant to be felt and not acted upon.

exactly who is 'white america' anyway? are you the mouth piece for this 'white America'?

I am speaking for the white people in this country who refuse to be made to feel guilty for being white.

I know that some people thrive on that feeling

again you do not answer the questions......... you speak in general terms that contribute nothing short of more division. if you are white and if the feeling of guilt is present I can only offer that you follow it and see where it leads:)

I have no guilt for what my ancestors did or did not do.

I will have no guilt about it either.

Now my personal action, some I am ashamed of, and feel very guilty about, but this is not one.

I do not know what question you are referring to, but if you will ask again I will certainly do my best to answer it for you:)

The reserves are simply about retaining ties to ones own heritage. That doesn't mean one cannot participate in wider society.

As for guilt. this is not about guilt this is about justice. You cry injustice for perceived wrongdoings against white society and taxes and white people and refuse to hear the other side of the story as it means nothing to you. That is what makes cultural dominance so complete and people like you follow like lemmings the party line of imperialism, colonisation, annihilation. It beggars belief but there you are, some people will always believe the field was always equal -will always believe that Indians had as much rights as everyone else - even when you point out the truth in law it means nothing to people who cannot think or feel for anyone but themselves. I notice you never address the facts put forward about whites breaking treaties and laws of non- citizenship rights.

Your mind is closed to any sort of regard for others - so be it. You have the vision of tribalism and therefore will always remain in that battle. Some of us evolved and stopped spouting garbage that rationalised injustice and cultural dominance and we question how people can change the world - not sucuumb to its absolute small minded pettiness in order to protect our imagined successes. If we stood on the backs of others to achieve success and did not realise the impact on others at the time I understand that, but to continue in ignorance and still stand on their backs crying all sorts of new catch crys of indignation about inequality is just pathetic. It is much like GWB pretending that there were WMD and once the public discovered there were none - he still maintained Iraq was a winnable and Just war - unfortunately for him most people realised it was an imperialistic drive for oil that destabilised a nation. Context is a bitch sometimes.

No one could ever accuse you of feeling guilty for being white - you have no idea of what cultural dominance is to ever address it on an intellecual level. Simply put your world revolves around you and your experiences. Those experiences define you and your knowledge base but cannot in any way impact or impress those of us who aspire to know and be more than the BS we get fed. You ignore the processes of cultural dominance - you pretend they are historical. You ignore how such dominance is informed, you ignore the rights of others to live as they want by insisting they join your society and live like you in the assimilationist model that has never succeeded. You believe they are privileged. Nothing will change your mind - that is fine, but thankfully there are others who are more informed.

chasincash

Beautiful just beautiful

Boo hoo hoo i am such a bad man.

your speech was pretty but way off base.

Dude - you don't even get that the analogy of assimilation was not complimentary - ...your book has already been written for you...nothing new to see here folks move along....

have you been to the reservation, Emoryh? Can you name those wonderful freebies?

ya know? and

exactly who is 'white america' anyway? are you the mouth piece for this 'white America'?

those questions.

real quick

I beleive I answerwed both questions.

9.25

9.23

It is illogical to insist on the a division of Indians from a collective WE by suggesting they do not have equal rights of entitlement and then try to hold them accountable to laws for the public - or "everyone." Follow your own logic - If they are subject to the same rules - then they must also own the country under the same collective of Americans.

This is my logic. There is one big-ass country and a bunch of smaller ones within it. We don't force natives to pay taxes. However, if natives sign a contract that requires them to do so they should be held to it like anyone else. There is only one country here and everyone needs to follow the rules. I don't care if it's an indian, mexican, asian, white or black person; if they are required by law to do something they should be held just as accountable as anyone else. If they can't deal with our laws they shouldn't do business with us.

If they can't deal with our laws

They`re in the right place!

Seems a lot of people can`t deal with "our?" laws.

New High In U.S. Prison Numbers - washingtonpost.com

Feb 28, 2008 ... More than one in 100 adults in the United States is in jail or prison, an all-time high that is costing state governments nearly $50 billion ...
www.washingtonpost.com › Nation - Similar

Anybody in our country that hasn`t been fined or in trouble with the law?

Seems a lot of people can`t deal with "our?" laws.

Sure are. I'd be willing to look into if some or many of our laws are unnecessary. But until then, they are laws that will and should be enforced. We are a nation of laws not individuals. As far as this story is concerned: I don't forsee any changes to contract law being passed anytime soon that would make these individuals not be required to pay their taxes.

I don't know if your being sarcastic, but just because a people are living up to YOUR standards does NOT give you the right to take away everything they have.

Got to be sarcasism because nobody could be that much of an idiot and that ignorant. You really shouldn't use sarcasm in this manner - it could very easily be mistaken for your actual opinion.

We, ninety million of us, lived according to our needs - if a bow and arrow accomplished a method of obtaining food - that's what we used. Why try to invent something that took the entire purpose and sacredness of hunting/co-existing with Mother Earth's creatures and our relations out of our need to eat? Why should we stand 600 yards from a deer when we can get up to 10 feet from them, commune with them, talk with them, thank them for giving us their bodies and skins and bones so we are able to survive. After all, what we don't use (which is little), we give back to the earth so that the circle can continue.

So, you came over here, wiped out 89,749,000 people in 460 years just to civilize us and give us some technology??? Wow - you are soooo coooolllll.

No, it's not sarcasm. You just can't take and event out of history and judge it in your 21st century eyes. But in retrospect, the only thing I would change is to encourage the natives to adopt our culture. And it seems like we still haven't learned this lesson since we are letting all these immigrants in our country and now we have to push #1 for English and etc. And this doesn't make for a very cohesive and effective culture and invites terrorism and other problems.

Also, if immigrants don't want to adopt our culture they should stay home. But most won't because they want all the goodies your culture is able to provide and theirs can't. And if their culture doesn't work why do they want to bring it with them?

We did mistreat them but they were living like animals and it was also about time they got some civilization and technology.

Pick up a history book sometime. One that wasn't written in the 1950's. Indigenous peoples were living in huge, well-planned, well-run communities at the time of first contact with the "Old World."

Epidemics from Eurasia levelled the Americas. Whole communities were wiped out. Peoples who were living in prosperous, clean cities that put the blighted, tyrannical stench that was the condition of most European cities at the time to shame had banded together as epidemic disease refugees and were rebuidling their civilisations when Europeans started wiping them out on purpose.

There's no justification for mistreatment of other human beings.

One that wasn't written in the 1950's. Indigenous peoples were living in huge, well-planned, well-run communities at the time of first contact with the "Old World."

Go camping sometime during the winter even with your 20th century goretex and tell me how much you enjoy it. If necessary I'll even let you go to the doctor, dentist, McDonalds and laundry.

You said "Also, if immigrants don't want to adopt our culture they should stay home. But most won't because they want all the goodies your culture is able to provide and theirs can't. And if their culture doesn't work why do they want to bring it with them?"

Funny - that's exactly what we said in the 14, 15 and 16th centuries - you don't wanna adopt to our culture - go home. Too bad we had Pi$$ poor immigration laws back them. I can just imagine the Chickasaw language being spoken by the Southern dudes today - har har har har har.

Go camping sometime during the winter even with your 20th century goretex and tell me how much you enjoy it. If necessary I'll even let you go to the doctor, dentist, McDonalds and laundry.

They weren't camping. They were living in towns. They had their own doctors, dentists, and were perfectly capable of doing their own laundry. And without them you wouldn't have a good deal of the food you enjoy on your plate - even if where you go is McD's. *shudders*

Seriously, have you ever read a history book?

I was once talking with a friend of mine on the Cheyenne reservation, and he was highly amused about the history books that always spoke about the American "wilderness". He said, "It looked like wilderness to those white folks, but it wasn't wilderness to us. We lived here. It was our backyard."

They had their own doctors, dentists,

I guess!!!!!!!!!

and were perfectly capable of doing their own laundry.

Do you think they took coins or credit cards?

This is simply ignorance - you are referncing modern amenities within a historical perspective - as if settlers had ATM's or McDonalds.

fstwarrior----My thoughts exactly, thanks for speaking up:

Funny - that's exactly what we said in the 14, 15 and 16th centuries - you don't wanna adopt to our culture - go home.

And aren't those who defend white man's right to come here to overpower the NATIVES to assimilate, always the first ones outraged when people come from countries to our south and want to keep THEIR culture? Isn't that Karma?

chasencash---- FYI

http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/files/troll_2.jpg

First off if people from our south can come here and take it from us, more power to them

second let's not pretend that native Americans were innocent little babes in the woods. They too committed their share of atrocities to the white settlers.

As in The War of Northern Aggression the victors get to write the history books.

This is simply ignorance - you are referncing modern amenities within a historical perspective - as if settlers had ATM's or Mc

Donalds.

Ignorance seems to be pretty pervasive in this country. I hear high school graduation rates are about 70%. And that's after no child left behind. And some of these people even vote, which should be against the law.

I guess atrocities happen on both sides whenever people invade the land and resources of others. That doesn't make the invaders morally right. They bring laws to the country supposedly based on righteous governance to build a society of opportunity. Unfortunately most laws of segregation and division simply sought to further promote colonisation and settlement of one culture at the expense of another. There was complete disregard for the survival and growth of Native American populations.

Vast tracks of land were taken and by treaty agreements certain lands were to remain in Native ownership - even though many of those lands were barren of resources. While some errors have occurred here, the spirit of the original treaties should be honoured. So much has already been taken, there is nothing to be gained from further impoverishment.

It does make me laugh that people who usually have no regard for Native Americans cry the loudest about immigration and illegal aliens, they that descend from the same ilk.

Storyartist: I do hope you were not referring to me.

Indigenous peoples were living in huge, well-planned, well-run communities at the time of first contact with the "Old World."

I think the problem is, they haven't changed the way their large, well-run communities are built. And by "large and well run" you must mean 'large and well-run" in a below average sort of way...what would you consider Europe if Natives had large and well-run communities? Must have been like Atlantis in comparison...

I never said it made my ancestors right, just said it was done and it is over. Neither myself or you have ever killed an Indian or a white person, so why do people feel this overwhelming need to feel guilt over what our ancestors did.

When attitides like yours continually feed some sort of belief that Native Americans were ever treated as equals. They were degraded, their way of life destroyed and this continued desire to take from them the tiny remnants of what is left is just another BS melting pot jargon of cultural dominance.

chasencash----No, that's why I added the "FYI" and I thought I was being subtle. That's how someone else passed that link along to me, when they recognized a trap I was about to fall into. For what it's worth -- just ignore it.

Cool.

Gee, wish I'd thought of that in #8.2 above.

'Member what Andy said??? - "Marshall made the decision, let him enforce it." Wow - talk about a law-a-biding piece of red-neck trash - gotta luv the guy for the size of his cajones - telling the Supreme Court to pack sand.

The tribes of today face an issue of land again, and since the same party is in power

???What does that mean?

I think they're talking about the Democrats since Jackson was a Democrat.

amen

Free Leonard Peltier!

Yes.

Please, half the adult population of the Rez was probably drunk at the time.

Funniest post of the day.

Probably one of the stupidest also.

My maternal grandmother was 50% Cherokee. The drunk joke is tasteless. I'll say no more about it.

And one of the most racist...but there you go...racists are usually ignorant.

Absolutely! FREE LEONARD PELTIER! Hear it here! (sprry I don't remember HTML to change this to a link.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-FIEYksM9I

Robbie Robertson and The Red Road Ensemble

For those who don't know; Learn a bit of Indian history with some of the best music in the world!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgSi9gtPlU0 (Ghost Dance)

Also "Contact from the Underworld of Red Boy" is absolutely awesome!

Nothing surprises me more when a POTUS cannot even sign into declaration, the legal recognition of the very Indian Tribe, The Chinook Nation that helped moved Lewis and Clark up and down the Columbia River and IS well historically document. When GW Bush wouldn't even to do the right thing with this one, it was crystal clear that man was not only NOT right in the head, he is pure evil. This needs to come up again in front of Obama.

http://www.up.edu/portlandmag/2005_winter/chinook/chinook_02.html

Tyler! Well, I would say good one, but I think keeping racists and their ugly venom exposed is all the better.

Sometimes I miss hearing what they had to say even if it makes my blood boil.

If you don't like capitalism, or people trying to overcome economic hardship by enterprise - that must mean you like socialism. Oh wait - you want Native Americans to succeed and thrive on their own, but without access to business ventures that may help them. You just think they can exist by being performance players in some sort of fetished tourist venture?

Are they indians who live off the land or are they casino owners?

Most Indians are neither, actually. I don't believe this particular band has a casino, but I might be wrong. Anybody know?

Tax free capitalistic ventures are unjust. Indian casinos are tax free meaning they can make up to 60% more than another comparable casino in a specific area. That is socialism. Giving a tax break to the poor and tax the rich. Understood?

No sir, they don't have a casino.

gundy, you still keep making such - well - really, really outlandish statements that mean nothing to anyone but yourself. Indian casinos have to comply with the Indian Gaming Act which means they have to sign an approved compact with the state they operate in and have to pay the state, at a minimum, 25% of their gross. In many instances, the Tribes also have to pay, or agree to pay, the localities a percentage or their profits to offset the wear and tear on the infrastructure of the county/city. The BIA also has to approve the compact and, in the compact, the Tribe has to detail where their revenues will be going and why. If the BIA or the state have any doubts as to the integrity of the Tribe or the casino, the Tribe is monitored worse than a school hall is during lunch time.

As I said before gundy - you REALLY, REALLY need to read some current history books and get some cultural sensitivity lessons.

Thanks fstwarrior - i would love to know just exactly what makes gundy hate the indigenous people of this country - or is it just the envy of other?

Gundy has consistently displayed a lack of knowledge about this situation and the entire Native American situation altogether. We can all deduce his import is irrelevant as well as ignorant. He has not even read the article properly.

tribal casinos do not pay the corporate income tax.

The tribal Casinos have to pay taxes on all items sold which will be used off of the Reservation, and that is it. Different states do have different laws, and cities can take taxes as well, but the federal government has yet to tax reservations and subsequently casinos.

The reservations are deemed sovereign.

Property taxes and hotel occupancy taxes, for example, do not apply to reservations.

http://www.lao.ca.gov/2007/tribal_casinos/tribal_casinos_020207.aspx

Stop spouting crap about tax free ventures being unjust. Killing and segregating Native Americans onto barren unsustainable land while stealing their lands is unjust. The hypocrisy is unbelievable. If you do not care about the injustice of the past attrocities committed against Native Americans then pull your head out of your ass when crying injustice against them...Your perspective and sense of scale are so bigoted your comments are worthless.

chasencash...:)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003911,00.html

Here is some more reading for you.

Your perspective and sense of scale are so bigoted your comments are worthless.

Killing and segregating Native Americans onto barren unsustainable land while stealing their lands is unjust.

Without a doubt, but unjust to whom? Those who died? Yes. Those who were direct descendants? Yep. Those who are alive now? ...

It isn't biogtry to want to know and understand an issue in it's entirety instead of just spending money and giving away things like our federal government does instead of confronting groups of people who hang ancient history over the heads of others.

And if you would actually understand where I am coming from, there is no scale. I am not saying what my Ancestors did is unjust or not...I am saying two injustices do not make a right.

I stuck with the article the whole time until others brought up unsubstantiated "facts" about how this land should still be in the hands of the Indians even after they sold it, bought it back, and didn't have it protected from repossession.

gundy - in a short answer - go to a bank, sign a contract to buy a house, move in the house and then don't make payments. What will the bank do?? Well, they'll probably evict you and then sue you for non-payment of a legally obligated contractual transaction.

The U.S. and Tribes went to the bank (treaty table), signed a treaty for land (with certain provisions over the life of the treaty for some 242,000,000 square miles of land), moved the Tribes to desolute locations and didn't make payments as obligated under the legally binding contractual transaction.

What would your bank do?? Take back the land and sue you for non-payment. What could we do??? NADA, ZILCH, ZERO, ZIP because the laws are written to protect the U. S. government, so we have no recourse but to live where we were placed.

The land in question was given to the Tribe as part of the treaty. In 1898, the Dawes Act was passed which divided many reservations up into individual holdings. Remember - NDNs had/have no concept of ownership - it belongs to all, not one. So they now have this "thing" that Creator gave them in the first place, so, under our way of thinking, we could use it as Creator directs, not knowing that the whites expected money to be able to live on our land. Thus, many, many NDNs lost their land for non-payment. Funny isn't it - the U. S. hasn't lost an inch of land for non-payment. Fair???

As soon as I sell said land the contract either 1. Is void 2. Continues under the buyers ownership. 1 seemed to happen in this case.

and what makes your comments sound so entitled themselves? grundy

Good comment - forgotten by most - thanks.

If not for the code talkers?????????

are you kidding

how about the hundreds of thousand white men who died and never came home

That is very insulting

How about those that died defending Code Talkers

You need to see the movie "Windtalkers" with Nicolas Cage and Adam Beach - shows you how the Code Talkers were protected - and killed to protect the unit. Yup, really protected.

Quit antagonizing emoryh.

Well if it was in a movie it must be true.

Not antagonizing, but why give extra credit just because they were N.A.?

Why not just call them American.

why can't N.A. recieve credit for contributions? do only white americans get credit?

Well, they are called Americans - First Americans. The credit being given them is based on Treaty obligations - obligations that have not been met.

The movie was based on a story written by the fella who was a "guard" for one of the Navajo Code Talkers - supposedly as a biography to the Code Talker. 'Course, Bollywood made some changes to pique our interest, but the basic storyline is true.

emoryh---in your mind you are so correct! was it not a white man that started the second world war???why would the red man mingle in a white mans war? i am so happy that the american indian doesnt have such a narrow mind and heart as you script so well. why is it only about the white man? what about all the negro men that died so valorly--protecting the white man? no it was about what was right and what was so wrong--you moron. what about the yellow man that served so honorably in the war--defending thier honor and also this country?? your reasoning is so disgusting. you really need to get the color out of your heart and accept a person for what is inside

the only true americans of this country are the tribes of north america and if you want to go deeper also south america before the european sailed to the new world.

they were persecuted and enslaved the day the spainiards arrived in the new world. the disease,genocide,slavery,famine,forced relocation,racism and just the total gross disregard for respect and dignity of human life. so tell me how many hundreds of thousands of indians have perished--how much red blood is enough?

i know a few indians--some are navajo-ute-blackfoot-apache-crow-sioux and i could go on with more.point is they have paid there dues hundreds of years ago.back off and give them some space. enough of plundering?

it was my father who talked of the codetalkers--he was there,so be respectful.

i was taught--it is not the color of skin,but it is the heart. i am sorry for you that see things differently,but is not that america-we can see things differently.

that was also the way of the american indian--hundreds of years before any white man had a thanksgiving feast in 1619 at the berkely plantation. it was also in the name of christianity(enacted by the catholic pope) to enslave and kill all in the name of god-just for a chunk of gold.

there is so much to learn from the indian ways and philosphies that maybe just once u should try to open your eyes and point of view. they are like any other human,sterotyping will not help no one

p.s. my father is white

D White

You need to mind the COH.

First Why would a "Red Man" mingle in a white mans war? Because as you so adequately put it this is their country too. You seem to get a little over zealous calling people by all kinds of different colors while accusing others of being racist. You sir or madam are the very epitome of a racist.

Your second statement is also way off base. Their would be no Americans had we not come from Europe and made a country.

I too know and am related to Native Americans. I do not see your point, and as I know them well can honestly say they would not see it either.

I will out of respect for your father not comment on his monopoly of speaking about the Code Talkers.

Once again you seem to be the one wrapped up in colors of red, yellow.or black, so my logical conclusion is that this does in fact matter to you.

Your time frame seems to be a little off there, but I will try to figure out what you are talking about.

I have learned many things from Native Americans. I think their way of life was wonderful. No problem at all with then, some problems with some of them now. Afore mentioned whiners.

p.s. my father was white too

p.s.s my mother was half Cherokee

Their would be no Americans had we not come from Europe and made a country.

Ah the revelations of language - "America" is because Europeans made a country - and had "WE"(the real Americans not the fake Indians already living there) not come from Europe the native peoples in America would have????....well they don't really matter - The land they occupied and society they built meant nothing till the Europeans came.

How fantastic to be so ignorant about how one speaks as reinforcing cultural superiority and dominance while pretending that everyone is the same and equal. Your language betrays the dominance and segregation you believe while pretending that you are really saying that we are all one.

If you are indeed part Indian - then congratualtions to your white ancestors, they have succeeded in producing the ultimate weapon of assimilation - someone who derides Indians as being inferior whiners while believeing white european society is what makes up America. Fascinating...you have joined the Borg...resistence in your case was futile.

re was no country before, no people to combine a society...just pure ignorance once again.

chasincash

Allways was futile. As I said before your attitude that the N.A. is owed something is a mute point.

This is the U.S.A. not The Nations, The peoples land, or any other name. Get onboard the winning team and lets move forward.

Yes resistence would take some moral sense of right and wrong as well as higher intelligence. I believe you are correct in your case. The rest of us will have to make do without another clone..oh dear how will we cope with the loss??

In fact let me add that I do feel superior to anyone who whines and lives in the past begging for something they are to ignorant to realize they are never going to get.

Pick yourself up and make your own way in the world just like millions before you have. You were conned by the gov. just like the rest of us have been our whole lives. It's just the way it is.

Oh what a surprise - you admit to feeling superior - and all that garbage about equality. Ah well stupid is as stupid does.

emoryh

if i am the epitome of a racist (COH) then ok--i have been called worse.i guess it takes one to know one! i would guess by the color of your aurora-and i would be very wary of you. your mumble jumble of words are very decieving. plain english-you are jacked up! i only speak of words of color as you chose to speak first. how does your own medicine feel???not so good i am sure.my first comment i spoke of no color,thanx

i stick to all i say, and yes i become defensive to one that wants to bring the color of skin into the coversation,and if you dont like it--then dont mention color. the conversation is of the irs forcing payment from the sioux. if you want to trade spit on racism then lets do it some other time, some other thread.

i believe i have my dates right-although i was not around in 1621-n-virginia but if you prove me wrong maybe you might foward the info to brittanica,as i dont want to dwell on the past as you mentioned. knowledge of my past is also seeds to my future,though i do not dwell-i will heed and learn. have you not heard "knowledge is power"

when someone wipes out generations of your family-dont whine ok. be sure to take it like a real man and move foward with rest of the robots and join the winning team.when is the last time you rooted for the underdog? as for the americas----they were inhabited and flourishing long before eric the red (oops did i say?) and cortez. so your analogy really makes no sense at all on that and for that matter ALL.

tell me what have you learned from the indian? i would be very most interested in also learning. one last one emoryh,for this has been fun what do you get when you put the word go after the word moron,and dont be insulting as you also mentioned me.

p.s. hope i didnt hurt your feelers here poor poposito!

emoryh you have fallen victim to the lies and propaganda. Your point of view is dehumanizing and class based. but you will not see it, until you see it.

congrats on your own victories. not everyone is born a hero....does that mean we reject them?

later.

Nope - the Declaration of Independence didn't apply to the Native Americans. In fact, Native Americans were not granted citizenship to the U. S. until June 3, 1923 as a "Present" for fighting so well during WWI. Sure was sweet to receive our citizenship in a country that we had lived in for 20,000 years - just because we fought so good for the white duds.

fstwarrior - WTF - I did not know that, how on earth do you manage to keep your sanity after some of the ass holes posting tonight when quite frankly you haven't even had rights of 'citizenship' for 100 years. Again I say WTF? how can anyone have these - they have their rights - they are free to leave the reservations - comments - and expect anyone to take them seriously?

My bad..."Merciless Idian Savages!".

Declaration of Independence

Declaration of Independence, with signers' biographies, and other people, events, and acts

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

You also didn't know that we have a separate Bill of Rights? It was passed in 1968 and is called the Indian Bill of Rights which grants non-reservation Indians the same rights guaranteed under the Declaration of Independence, but reservation/trust Indians have different rules to follow (look it up on Google). Note it was passed in 1968 - only 192 years after EVERYONE else was guaranteed the right of happiness, domestic tranquility and those other things.

How do we manage to keep our sanity??? Good question. Some don't, hence alcohol, drugs, abuse and a death rate 42% higher than the general U. S. population. Some do, but it's a real tough fight, something we are good at doing - maintaining our dignity in the strongest of opposition.

Thanks for asking jbdaad.

You also didn't know that we have a separate Bill of Rights?

Nope. Thanks. Um, just in case, my first comment was meant to be a scathing sarcastic type thing.

What do you think of this ?

US to spend $3bn compensating native Americans

Telegraph (Seeded By alkimija)

Makes even less sense to me why,

Shameful: American Indian land sold off by IRS to pay off taxes

Sorry - didn't recognize the sarcasm - ruff day at work I guess.

No, it doesn't make sense. But, the $3B payment is grundy's way of saying - "Oh, you mean all the oil, gas, gold, silver, calcium, etc. that I sold in your name - you were supposed to get that money?? Gee, I'm so sorry - let's just forget the debt, shall we???"

Unfortunately, I expect more legal trials and tribulations coming down the pike on the royalty's issue. Congress is probably going to invoke the Constitution, Section 8, saying that DOI doesn't have the authority, under law, to approve payment - only Congress has that authority. :-(

Congress is probably going to invoke the Constitution, Section 8, saying that DOI doesn't have the authority, under law, to approve payment - only Congress has that authority

Congress can eat my shorts.

U.S. CONSTITUTION

Section. 8. Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, ..... Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which ... Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

Yes the desire for essentialism is caged in the need for survival. I think it is one thing to be subject to cultural forces and another to be subjugated. The way forward must be dynamic and ever changing. The past and all its history must be absorbed as such. To paraphrase an Irish writer who wrote - history must be seen to be dead or it will kill you. Unfortunately the complexity in which ways of cultural dominance continue make that suggestion almost impossible. I still hope it can be achieved. However when you see white middle class backlash against foreign immigration - you begin to wonder if it will ever be possible. It seems to me that often all sides are guilty of that which they accuse others of.

Hi Roy!,

ARTICLE 12. No treaty for the cession of any portion or part of the reservation herein described which may be held in common shall be of any validity or force as against the said Indians, unless executed and signed by at least three-fourths of all the adult male Indians, occupying or interested in the same; and no cession by the tribe shall be understood or construed in such manner as to deprive, without his consent, any individual member of the tribe of his rights to any tract of land selected by him, as provided in article 6 of this treaty.

Article 6

Any person over eighteen years of age, not being the head of a family, may in like manner select and cause to be certified to him or her, for purposes of cultivation, a quantity of land not exceeding eighty acres in extent, and thereupon be entitled to the exclusive possession of the same as above directed.

Any person.

Hurm. Good catch, jbdaad.

I'm not sure it brings any clarity to the situation, though I admit I am just starting my first cup of coffee this AM!

Same area this story came out of...Hmmm..

Sioux Falls development group in SD gets grant

SIOUX FALLS — The Southeast Development Foundation in Sioux Falls is getting a $500,000 grant from the federal Economic Development Administration.

Strange.