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NEARING

Thoughts Create. Do The Right Thing.
Articles Posted: 51  Links Seeded: 3639
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Is This The End Of Wealth Creation? The Roman Empire as role model for the United States

Seeded on Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:10 PM EST
Read ArticleArticle Source: tceconomist.blogspot.com
world-news, economy, fall-of-rome, fall-of-us
Seeded by nearing
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The rise and fall of the Roman Empire is a classic example of Return On Investment (ROI). Rome essentially funded conquest through pillage, bringing rich treasures of gold and silver back to Rome. During the early years of the Empire, the ROI on conquest was very good and Rome prospered. It had plenty of coin to fund its Legions. As the years went by, however, it became more difficult to find lands worth conquering and the travel costs to send a Legion to remote lands increased. The ROI of conquest began to falter, and Roman Emperors finally concluded additional conquests were not worth the cost. Years of wealth creation came to an end. The Roman Empire shifted its attention to wealth preservation.

Whenever a nation slips from wealth creation to wealth preservation, it becomes increasingly difficult to sustain the prior level of wealth. As the cost of maintaining the Legions went up, the ROI on having them declined. In order to pay the cost of preservation, Rome debased its currency multiple times. Debasement is a way to pay today's bills with tomorrows worthless coins. That led to incredibly high rates of inflation. Payment in kind often substituted for worthless currency. This debasement continued until mercenary legions refused to take Roman coins, sacked Rome, and established their own government.

Sound Familiar?

There is a lesson here. If economic circumstances yield a positive ROI on labor, capital and material, then a nation is able to create wealth. When a nation lapses into wealth preservation, the ROI on invested capital declines. It becomes very difficult to sustain transfer payments because the creation of wealth declines to a point where there is no more wealth to transfer.

Wealth, in this sense, has little to do with how much money the rich can command. We are talking about the wealth of a nation's workers, and more specifically the wealth of its middle class. Rome's declining ability to maintain the wealth of its workers led to unsustainable welfare costs. The cohesive energy of Roman culture collapsed.

This is precisely the situation in America and the European Union.

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  • Public Discussion (13)
nearing

If we are willing to compare the decline of the Roman Empire with the current cultural and economic condition of the United States, Canada, and several nations in Europe, the parallels are to obvious to dismiss. Our manufacturing base is declining, and welfare transfer payments are increasing. There is a call for higher taxes. Aliens flood across porous borders. Corruption and moral decay is not merely the norm, it is defended with emotional fervor.

The era of wealth creation is over.

___________________________________

Time to call out the media on the glossing over of this mess.

Only when people have faced the truth can they start thinking of solutions.

  • 4 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:16 PM EST
gladbutterfly

Very timely and apt analysis. If the shoe fits....

  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:42 PM EST
nearing

I agree.

Especially in light of this tidbit from Krugman at the NYT:

No Wealth Creation in the US since 2000

We are in for a world of hurt. Maybe we should start the commune in your backyard, glad.

  • 2 votes
#2.1 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:48 PM EST
Reply
gladbutterfly

It's starting to look more and more attractive, nearing. I am starting to stockpile food a bit. For a look at the extent to which people have become alarmed, check out this food source.

  • 1 vote
Reply#3 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:54 PM EST
A. Macarthur

The cynic in me believes that in the two latest days in which President Obama was prominent in the media for some "hopefulness" regarding his economic stimulus package...THE STOCK MARKET TANKED.

I don't think it's an accident or a coincidence.

The cynic in me feels that the ORGANIZED WEALTH gang - the REPUBLICAN WALL STREET CONTINGENT, went to Short Selling to rain on Obama's and the Middle Class' parade!

Short Selling involves the sale of a stock that the seller doesn't own. More specifically, a short sale is the sale of a security that isn't owned by the seller, but that he or she has promised to deliver. That may sound confusing, but it's actually a simple concept.

When one short sells a stock, his/her broker will lend it to him. The stock will come from the brokerage's own inventory, from another one of the firm's customers, or from another brokerage firm. The shares are sold and the proceeds are credited to an account. Sooner or later the investor/short seller must "close" the short by buying back the same number of shares (called covering) and returning them to your broker. If the price drops, you can buy back the stock at the lower price and make a profit on the difference. If the price of the stock rises, you have to buy it back at the higher price, and you lose money.

This is in part what tanked the market (along with the sub-prime mortgage scandal). Rumors were place on the internet to frighten investors and drive the market, and prices, DOWN.

I'm asking my Congresswoman and U.S. Senators to investigate this possibility.

Hopefully, they will.

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:23 PM EST
gladbutterfly

I share your suspicion, AM. Representatives should know about this.

  • 2 votes
#4.1 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:27 PM EST
Reply
enigma

Good thoughts. I would add that rampant political corruption and vast greed were significant factors in the decline of the Roman Empire -- and I think we're seeing the same outcome here.

You can't have the elite taking money out of the economy and putting nothing back in; does anyone wonder about the supposed $X-trillion "hole" in the economy? Wall Street has been taking billions out of the economy for decades and putting nothing back.

  • 4 votes
Reply#5 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:35 PM EST
mariajolicoeur

Looking at history the early colonists of American brought over many ideas from the Romans, for example in medicine many of the original medicines were taken from the Romans, Roman architecture stlye was used in early American Italian marble was imported from Italy I believe in the building of President Thomas Jefferson's home Mo, when the early american colonists layed the foundations for law here in America many of thier ideas of law have fundamentals pertaining to Greek and Roman philosopher

  • 1 vote
Reply#6 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:45 PM EST
Nancy-400923

And England. Hence; Black's Law Dictionary.

  • 1 vote
#6.1 - Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:32 AM EST
Reply
XNihil0Zer0

Life has evolved to die, I wonder if such is true with nations.

  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:55 PM EST
enigma

You know, the way I've been thinking about it, over, say, the last four or five years is like this: every empire that's risen, has fallen. No matter how expansive, how wealthy or powerful, they have come and gone. America, it may be, has passed the zenith of her power and influence and perhaps a new age has emerged.

  • 1 vote
#7.1 - Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:58 PM EST
Reply
Bob Nelson.

I hate to be a party-pooper, but the basic historical premise here is just plain wrong. The high drama of emperors' game of musical chairs makes us forget that there were in fact several centuries of "pax romana".

If you want to draw a lesson, try this: The Empire ultimately fell because there were too many poor people (germanic tribes, etc) living on the Empire's borders. Those people wanted in, in order to participate in the Empire's wealth. The Empire refused their entry. They forced the door, and installed themselves. They didn't know how to run an Empire, and the world fell into depression.

That's a severe short-cut. But worth thinking about...

    Reply#8 - Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:31 AM EST
    aoimiyazaki

    Very interesting viewpoint.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#9 - Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:20 AM EST
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